[Arthur]

Parts & manufacturers come and go, especially in this hobby. The lucky few, or sometimes the forward thinking stockpile what is now ‘unobtainium’ for everyone else. This has already happened with urethane tires. Now it is creating waves regarding motors, in particular ‘slow’ motors. In the past we’ve had motors come and go or if they’ve been around a while get replaced with identical looking faster editions. By now most of us should know that labels and ratings from manufacturers mean nothing and are only useful to identify a motor – that’s it. Chris told me ‘control the motor and grip and you’ll have a level playing field’. I agree. I can control one end of this equation – the grip – by continuing to manufacture a single compound tire, which I’ve now done for a decade or so. I can also identify the tire with a coloured tamperproof mark – a small coloured dot through the meat of the tire. But motors are a completely different animal. I remember when the NC1 was the ‘slow’ motor of choice which is now unobtainium. Then I remember when the BWNC1 was the faster ‘slow’ motor of choice which is now unobtainium. I also remember when the ‘Vanski’ was the slim can FF050 ‘slow’ motor of choice which is now unobtainium. So we are left with a minefield of replacement ‘slow’ motors with manufacturers’ ratings all over the board. What compounds the issue is that others may scour the internet and then obtain what they claim to be a suitable replacement or in some cases the same thing. Almost always it isn’t. I’ve never seen a double shaft stock ‘scaley’ motor – but others have made this claim. It isn’t always their fault – those selling the ‘slow’ motors may mislabel or mislead. Those that cannot get a formerly available motor of choice are understandably frustrated. And those who try to help find suitable alternatives usually realize that their time and efforts only lead to disappointment and in some cases open a Pandora’s box. Up to now I did believe that the Vanski era would eventually come to a close as these motors were used up, but apparently that is not happening fast enough. Discontent is greater than I thought and appears to be quite widespread.

To me one thing is sure – this cyclical pattern of the availability of ‘slow’ motors will always be a problem. Some are still going to great lengths to band aid ‘slow’ motor classes by trying to acquire suitable replacements. Those with stockpiles of Vanski motors, or those with an army of models all with Vanski motors, have no interest in seeing this restriction altered or lifted. Is there a solution?

I have a solution and I’ll get to it next…

The Happy Canadian Scale Modeler!

Topic

[Arthur]

But first, why not reward those who have scratch32 accounts and regularly visit and contribute to this site? Since almost everyone who races with scratch32 also races in another group, whether it is R32 or another group in southern Ontario – the Vanski motor is still widely sought after. So for anyone who is a scratch32 member (with an account that can reply to this thread) I’ll release 2 brand new Vanski motors for $20 ($10 each). First person to deliver cash in hand will get them… no paypal and no pre-orders. :good:

The Happy Canadian Scale Modeler!

[MiA]

Replying to this thread, I’ll take them. When are you home?

[Arthur]

I’m home all evening MiA… making my GT40 chassis for Friday…

…back to the ‘slow’ motor situation…

In my opinion motor restrictions are artificial, difficult to maintain over time and hard to police. ‘Slow’ motors are just a band-aid. Perhaps it is time that we take a deep breath, put our big boy pants on and finally rip that band-aid off once and for all. At least it would level the playing field for good.

Firstly, a pilot’s choice of motor has no impact on the track nor does it adversely impact the performance of others in a race so there is no need to restrict motors just to keep racing ‘fair’.

With grip already restricted there is only so much motor any model can handle – and there are already a plethora of available motors that out perform the available grip of the models we race on the tracks we’ve built, and with the advancement of technology that list should only get longer. On reflection artificial restrictions such as limiting an NSR model to just a 22k motor is designed for one purpose only: to save participants from themselves.

Focusing on the 1.5L Grand Prix class for which the Vanski motor issue is most prominent what would be the result of removing any motor restriction? Would the racing be unfair? Certainly not. That would leave the level of grip, the performance of the chassis, and the pilot’s own racing ability as the limiting factors for how much motor to have. Physics and ability. Just as in a free market why not leave it up to the pilot to decide what is too much motor in every case? Must we always save us from ourselves by imposing artificial and what are now unfair restrictions?

The arguments in favour of ‘slow’ motor restrictions are many: reduced cost, scale speeds, driveability, closer racing and the simple fact that it is easier for a novice to build or tune a fast ‘slow’ motored model. I can’t argue with these. But I also didn’t create the Vanski shortage nor am I responsible for the growing list of ‘unobtainiums’ – no individual is.

Short of having large club purchases of different hand out motors every season I see no other way to resolve the ‘slow’ motor challenge.

Looking forward the fairest overall long term compromise I see involves adding a ‘plus (+)’ class for every ‘slow’ motor class which would have no motor restriction at all, like in our SP class where we now have both SP and SP+ sub classes. Let physics and ability dictate what motors everyone chooses in the SP+ sub class. The + classes would promote innovation, chassis building and fast yet gentlemanly racing while the existing regular classes would remain as is and cater to the novice builder and those purely recreational gentlemen pilots. In addition, the race format for the existing regular classes could be adjusted to take away the Vanski advantage (something akin to a bracket) so that a 2 or 3 second penalty would be imposed for every lap below the set breakout lap time (and three breakouts = loss of one lap). The regular classes will promote casual yet exciting and close racing for many and at the same time accommodate existing ‘slow’ motors. With two alternatives and each being scored separately I do not see much of a downside – and no need for anyone to change or build anything new if they don’t want to. How can that be a bad thing?

The Happy Canadian Scale Modeler!

[MiA]

:yahoo: on my way!

[DB]

Would the intent be to run both (for example) SP and SP+ cars in the same race? Or would they each have their own distinct race?  If they run in the same race then I suggest consideration be given, to the extent possible, of alike cars being grouped to run against each other, in order, to reduce the inevitable frustrations between running slow and faster cars in the same race.

My overall concern though would be that guys might just gravitate to a faster motor in order to compete and the slow motor class is lost.

Just my thoughts.  :good:

[Arthur]

Hi DB, if we implement this my intent would be to run both on the same night whenever that class is scheduled but keep them separate as best we can. We’ll flush this out more over the next month – no rush…

As you and everyone else in scratch32 already know I’ve gone to great lengths to provide separate results for subclasses in SP already – depending on chassis configuration, specific motor, weight, etc. I haven’t done this yet for the open wheel classes but it would be easy enough to do for the motors too since we have the model registration form and the event registration thread…

I have more than enough BWMS050 motors to keep our group going for my lifetime at least – in fact I am willing to replace any Vanskis with BWMS050 motors in my relevant Grand Prix class models but I can’t speak for others. If the others agree then we could eliminate the Vanski from the 1.5L class and leave the rest ‘as is’. Viola – problem fixed! [If we do that then I would also eliminate the S-Can motors and Vanski motor from our 1950’s class since it makes no scale sense for them to be faster than our 1.5L class.] …the more I think about it the more this makes complete sense for us to do…

I used to think that we should keep the rules for our open wheel classes uniform so that others could once in a while participate but both the past year and recent word from many leads me to be skeptical about that possibility – now that the fork approaches maybe instead of trying to keep things the same as other groups’ in our open wheel classes we should bite the bullet and do the best thing for our group which would be to eliminate the S can and Vanski motors from 50GP and 1.5LGP…

The Happy Canadian Scale Modeler!

[Arthur]

I like this second solution and it would easily work for our group. In fact, if it would help get everyone in our group on board I will provide a free BWMS050 motor as a replacement for every Vanski or S-Can in our 1.5LGP & 50GP models to help facilitate the switch over. If we make the BWMS050 motor a single mandatory motor for our 50GP, 1.5LGP & Hot Rod classes wouldn’t that be simple!

The Happy Canadian Scale Modeler!

[Arthur]

I have a few very quick 1950’s Grand Prix models that have a Vanski soldered to the wire chassis. Rather than try to replace the motor I will sell the chassis (minus anything that can be removed) to anyone interested who races with another group. Just email me.

The Happy Canadian Scale Modeler!

[Arthur]

I saw several Vanski motors for sale online on ebay this morning… not cheap though…

The Happy Canadian Scale Modeler!

[Porsche911]

I’d be interested!!

[MiA]

Thanks for the motors! :yahoo: Even though it appears they may disappear from use?? :wacko:

Same # as Vanski available locally here (possibly) :scratch: But as you say, not cheap. They are in Brampton.

http://www.consumer-parts.com/PPN13EB10C-DVD-Loading-Motor-PPN13EB10C.htm

 

After posting initially, I called the above supplier and the motor’s are on back order from their supplier. No eta at the moment. They will send them an email and then get back to me with availability and current pricing.

And so while I was typing this they got back to me. Motors are available. In low quantities they are about $15.95C/unit. They will do a volume discount (quantity point to be determined) that could possibly get the cost down to about $11.00C/unit. Delivery is about 3-4 weeks at these prices. Faster delivery will add about $2.00 to the cost per motor in low volumes, about $1/motor in higher volumes. All costs and volumes approximate at this time. If there is any interest perhaps we can put a significant order together. Perhaps anyone interested could respond to this thread. :mail:

[Porsche911]

They are not Lazurus yet… :negative:

[Arthur]

Before anyone jumps too far ahead I would have a small sample of those motors tested first to see if they perform the same. Nevertheless great sleuthing MiA!

The Happy Canadian Scale Modeler!

[Arthur]

As far as the Vanski motor goes – popular opinion suggests to leave the status quo, especially now that everyone in our group has at least a few Vanski motors now (or models powered by Vanski motors). For future 1950’s and 1.5L Grand Prix classes I will begin posting results based on motor in addition to class as I’ve already done in sportscars… and looking forward the target or preferred slow motor which will eventually replace all others in both of these classes (unless we source another identical Vanski motor equivalent) will become the BWMS050 since we have many and they are cheap at only $5. As a group we will now need to put a tighter leash on these motors to preserve the future integrity of our slow motor Grand Prix classes since it is clear no one in our group wants these classes to be any faster than they already are. In 1950’s Grand Prix we will also slowly phase in a move away from S-can or other larger motors to just the FF050 slow motors – like the Vanski or the BWMS050. Because I am one of the biggest supporters of this move all of my future builds in both of these classes will be using the BWMS050 motor instead of the Vanski, BWNC1 or NC1. I would strongly encourage others who’ve already built Vanski powered models for both of these classes to do the same with their future builds, especially those who’ve already built very quick models. Cheers to everyone that reached out to me to provide their opinions on this topic whether in person or otherwise! :good:

The Happy Canadian Scale Modeler!

[Author]

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